Amputation Interview Posted
By Shannon • Sep 4th, 2007 • Category: ModBlogWhen I posted his amputation photos last month, it raised quite a lot of conversation, so I’ve followed that up with an interview — click through to read that now and come back here to comment!
Shannon is the founder and former Editor of BME.
Copyright © Shannon Larratt. Reproduced under license by BMEzine.com LLC
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i guess there are worse things he could be doing right?
I honestly think this is past what is OK. But then we all have our own personal limits.
Et dire que les amputés involontaires donneraient tout pour retrouver un membre…
Cet exemple n’est pas blamable mais reflète à quel point on peut ne pas être satisfait de ce que l’on possède.
Les bodymodifications à l’etrême frolent l’univers du glauque à ce stade…Tout est une question de méditation,n’est-il pas?
Ainsi soit-il!
This is beautyful… I’m sure, that’s better now then ever :S
I don’t understand what people thinking while do these stupid things.
Wow, a very interesting read. Not something i’d ever think of doing but if that’s what he wants to do, good on him.
One thing that shocked me though was that his wife does not know.
well what i think it pretty wrong is the fact he’s got a family and they have no clue of his personal motives. if you’re ballsy enough to chop off your own parts (which i dont’ think a lot of people are), then have some more courage to expose yourself to your wife and kids and then do it. seriously, i would be so humiliated if my husband (i’m not married btw) partook in something like this, and all the while had me worried shitless with “unlucky” accidents. do what pleases you but not at the expense of others. that’s fucking shameful to hide such a big thing like that from a family for self pleasure.
There is something seriously wrong with this. Although he is not hurting anyone, it goes beyond the limits of my comprehension why anyone would want to cut parts of himself off to be ‘different.’ I really do think he should seek counselling. I am not be facetious. It’s just crosses the line of sanity. Just my opinion.
well just because it good for the goose doesnt mean it is good for the gander, it is his thing he likes it, just because i dont understand it doesnt mean it isnt a real addition to who he is…
amputation. at least its not crack…
I don”t understand this type of modification at all but i would like to be able to.
It really blows me away that people think amputation is weird. Drastic, yes, but I would have thought that it would be obvious why people would be interested in it on a sensation/fetish level… And really, independent of sexual/fetish reasons, if one wants a REAL body modification experience, changing the fundamental structure of ones body is a great path to gaining new insights.
I’d argue that, say, heavy facial piercing or tattooing is a lot “weirder” and harder to justify, both on an objective and a subjective level…?
im interested in his subincision and penectomy attempts, are there any pictures of this in the galleries?
the first thing I recognized in the picture was the state of his nails, they look like he has some nail fungal.
I’ve been visitng modblog on a regulary base for approximately a half year and it’s surprising how “normal” pictures like this have become to me. If you had shown me this one a year ago I would have freaked out about the amputated toes, now I freak out about unhealthy looking nails. I think this is a good change :-)
Great interview, I was shocked his wife doesn’t know, I wonder if she even suspects anything, the ‘hoof’ thing is a cool look though.
I’m shocked that so many people are appaled by this gentlemans actions. If this makes him feel complete, whole and happy what right does anyone else have to say “here is the line” do not cross it. I wish him the best of luck. I admire his courage to share his modifications with the rest of the world.
I absolutely love any articles/interviews about amputation on here, that’s actually the main reason that I have first checked BME. Thank you for keeping up posting on the subject.
i came here just for the giles rants. now i’m absolutely disappointed he’s not here yet.
modick68 - Yes, but just a few. Email me and I’ll gladly put you guys in touch if you’d like.
(at snowrail@gmail.com please)
If he really feels a better/more complete/happier person with his body missing some parts - all the power to him!
I`m not going to condemn him for his ‘kink’ but this is crossing MY “line of acceptability” here.
And he’s definitely downplaying the risks associated with these DIY procedures. That there hasn`t gone anything wrong with what he calls “controlled infections” IMHO is a combination of good monitoring by himself as well as healthcare professionals - and sheer luck. While it may be as unsuspicious as possible under the circumstances, it certainly is not a method anybody would label as “safe”.
I just hope he`s using his own health care money for his treatment and doesn’t rely on the chronically underfunded SA public system that is struggling to give basic care to those who really need it as it is.
Oh, and thanks for the interview - topics like this make this site what it is!
Shannon, I get exactly where you’re coming from. I think the reason alot of people find voluntary amputation hard to deal with is that a good deal of us retain our hard wired ’shun’ reflex when it comes to ‘damaged’ group members.
Anthropologists have postulated that because disabled or less able members of a highly mobile hunter/gatherer aboriginal group would slow down the group as a whole our ancesters would abandon or kill them. Such hardwiring can be seen when people are shown pictures of things that are distateful - worm infestations, severely broken limbs etc: as a rule we pull a rictus face, baring our teeth and drawing back. This instinctive reaction is linked to a primal horror of physical damage to an individual that might in turn slow the group down or indeed expose them to predator attack due to lack of mobility.
I think that people’s instinctive reaction to such issues is doubled when they discover that the person in question has performed these ‘disabling procedures’ on themselves - in a way they have deliberately sabotaged the success of the group.
Just a theory, feel free to disagree, props to the guy for sharing his story and for trying to be responsible in his amputations. Although I do find it slightly uncomfortable thinking that his family does not know about his interests…
i agree with #20 about taking care of it himself. i can understand why people are so quick to persecute…what they don’t understand they immediately rebuke, isn’t that how it goes? but it seems what he is doing is something he wants. he understands the repercussions, and he understands the pain, and when it all comes down to it, it’s his decision.
life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. if in that pursuit he wants to take a few limbs off, more (or less) power to him!
What if someone grew a third arm? would that be weird?
Or grow a second dick, I think I’d personally like that, 2 dicks. awesome. Or maybe if my girlfriend had 4 tits, cool.
Lets even go more extreme, what if I wanted a tail? or scales, hmm scales could be fun… I’d personally like to have a little bit of fur.
But hey, science isn’t quite there yet, so that’s not an option, so instead of changing, adding, they cut.
Instead of changing in one direction, you change into another, because the first option isn’t available.
I don’t think this guy would be very interested in growing a 6th toe, but that’s just him, he feels he wants to cut off stuff, great for him!
Why is that so weird? I can’t get a hang of it.
People aren’t usually attracted to amputations, it isn’t very aesthetic for one thing, and there is also the direct negative reaction, but that doesn’t mean that wanting is weird.
I think I’d very much like to have an intimate relationship with a woman that has no feet/hands.
I like my body parts, but not to perfection, I can imagine having different body parts instead, probably ones I would like better, but if that is not an option, sometimes it’s a good solution to just have them off.
Here’s my problem with the whole thing. Personal freedoms not withstanding, pursuing an above-the-knee amputation (AKA) makes this man into a burden to society. This is one of those rare areas when society’s interest might really should be taken into consideration.
Is he going to want a prosthesis so that he can walk? Will he be planning to take advantage of handicapped access? Will he begrudge places that are handicapped inaccessible?
This goes beyond appearance or immediate infection risk, this is life long and not just stigmatizing but also a significant burden on others. This is a man who is electing to never be able to run with his kids, ever. He’s opting to place himself into a highly stigmatized group that suffers from many disadvantages throughout life. AKA will make everything more difficult. He won’t be able to drive even with a prosthetic without a significantly modified automobile, for instance. Stairs are extremely difficult for AKA amputees. Below-the-knee makes life more challenging, AKA is an order of magnitude further along the difficulty scale in terms of interacting with the non-amputated world.
So what’s the answer? I’m not sure, but this gentleman likely crosses beyond the realm of what’s a reasonable personal freedom or body modification.
For his wife not knowing about it, I’m with tinks.
His wife is probably worried sick about his diabetes causing him non-healing infections which lead to amputations. It is cruel to not let her know. So he can give interviews to strangers and show off his stumps online but he does not dare to tell his wife about such an integral part of his personality? There must be far more “internal struggle” then he is comfortable to admit to.
I’m still trying to make up my mind about the “voluntary amputation is an insult to amputees” question. What about using the logic of this statement elsewhere, like “suicide is an insult to everyone who ever died”? Me thinks that attempting suicide is the end result of a long and hard process when in the mind of the involved person are no other options and no doubt about the decision left. It is not disrespectful, it is the one possible solution for the individuum. Isn’t that the same with voluntary amputees, of course with the big difference that they are in a far better place, trying to make their lives better, not ending it? Or am I totally off with this train of thought?
moddoctor - It doesn’t make him any more of a burden to society than someone who, say, requires state-sponsored psychiatric treatment for depression. He’s had a couple of short visits for clean-up surgery; that’s far less of a toll on the system than someone who goes in for counseling every week or two because they have trouble dealing with their lives.
He’s also said (and I believe him) that he wants to be an ACTIVE amputee and that doing stuff is part of the fun. So I don’t think it’s at all fair to label him as a “burden”.
Great interview, thanks both to Shannon and the interviewee.
It’s reasonably clear that he’s not some desperately tortured soul, although I would have liked the question asked (’Are you a chronic depressive? No really, are you an emotional wreck half the time?’), just bringing an explicit answer to the doubters.
The issue of duplicity raised by Tinks is a real moral question; perhaps he shouldn’t be putting his wife through the pain. However, perhaps he’s causing less heartache (and maintaining a happy relationship) by keeping quiet; we don’t know the full story. Anyway, I believe that some ‘normal’ middle-aged men keep secrets from their wives… If I may venture a suggestion, I suspect that many people ‘feel’ something is wrong with this but know it’s not the amputation per se.
But what does ‘wrong’ mean?
Overall, amputation for many people seems one of those cases where it is important to observe the distiction between that which is ‘disgusting’ and that which is immoral. Those who consider themselves liberal cannot condemn victimless actions. However, people automatically react negatively on a visceral level to things that seriously contradict their own world-view, and shouldn’t feel bad about it (coprophillia anyone?).
When we grow up, associations about the world develop in our minds that stay with us forever. Some grow up one way, some another, but most in any culture grow up roughly the same. This affects everything from sexuality to food (and is not in any way ‘hardwired’, incidentally). I personally have a passionate dislike of Hawaiian pizza (cooked fruit is wrong), and heinz baked beans (sweet legumes are also just wrong). While they may seem trivial, these associations grow out of the same symbolic complex that defines my gender, spirituality, attitude to various forms of danger, and so on. This psychological process is very different from the philosophical question of morality.
All of the people who look at voluntary amputations, don’t like them, and complain about health service resorces, sanitary conditions, aesthetics, letting the side down in front of the ’straight community’, or suggest that the guy is mentally ill need to give themselves a break. Either you are authoritarians (unlikely on Modblog), or you just think this is disgusting, and that’s OK because we all identify some perfectly acceptable things or concepts that are disgusting to us.
To paraphrase Voltaire, ‘I do not agree with your self-amptation/shit-eating/gay-sex/pink-suit/pineapple-pizza/etc. but I will defend to the death your right to chop/eat/shag/wear/cook it’.
Good luck to the guy, I say.
I’ve been a BME reader for years. Shannon knows, I was there at the beginning. I’m sitting here, reading this interview and eating lunch. And I’m not the least bit queasy. I’m used to these sorts of things now. Thanks, Shannon.
Shannon,
There are significant distinctions between the activity level that a BKA and AKA can maintain. I’m quite serious at these being major distinguishing points on their own.
Further, there’s not a level of clarity from the interview of how once he achieves these goals he intends to function. Does he plan to obtain a prosthetic leg? Who is paying for that?
As a doctor, I live much of my life in the space where resource decisions are made. Amputees generally come to the front of the line for certain orthopedic support services that other injuries might not get priority for since walking is considered to be a significant life advantage.
This guy is absolutely within his rights to amputate his own leg, as far as I am concerned but I want to know how he will mitigate the impact on those around him, from immediate family to all of society.
amputation. at least its not crack…
FlamingFist
this way is better ha! “crack. at least is not amputation…. ” and the crack high is delicious !!!! i bet is much better then the high that he fells with his amputations.
It’s wrong for him to be dishonest about this with his wife. They’re an intimate partnership; she has a right to know. And if he’s practicing deception with his wife, I strongly suspect there’s an element of self-deception in his mind as well regarding his reasons for doing this.
Itai, I’ve got a sixth toe. Actually, I’ve got two of them - Twelve in total. At one point I even had eleven fingers.
Digit amputations were what initially drew me to BME. Pure curiosity about people who turned “normal” feet and fingers abnormal when I spent a good part of my early life coveting the normals. The other part trying to keep pesky doctors knives away from them!
(By the way, if anyone out there is a shoemaker. Please, take pity - it would be so nice to have pretty, girly shoes that come close to fitting!)
This unfortunatly is something I really struggle with.
I’ve always maintained that a distinguishing line between “modification” and “mutilation” is the fact that your mods do NOT impede your ability to funtion as a human being.
I can understand at a base level why someone would be interested in amputation. you could say it’s really not much different from the fact that mods of a permanent nature are extremelly attractive to me. (very large stretched piercings, cartilage removal etc.) but for some reason i am finding it hard to hold the same attittude towards this.
In my opinion it just seems that the negatives outweigh the rewards. Obviously this person understands the pro and cons, and feels differently then I do, because he continues to do this…
but i can’t get over how… random it all seems. It comes across as a very unplanned and random series of procedures. I realize he has an end goal of a AKA.. but you would just think that a person would put more thought into something so important and durastic? I guess if the leg is going to be gone eventually, it won’t really matter.
I don’t know.. I’m just blabbering.
in the end: personally i just couldnt justify doing something to my body that would hinder my functionality is such a major way.
If someone grew a third arm? Hells yeah that’d be seriously weird. More like miraculous.
It’d be weird enough everyone would research it to find out how to let all of us grow spare parts, I’m certain! It’s the holy grail of a lot of medicine now.
my only issue with this, is, as others have said, that he’s lying to his wife about it. that, imo, is far more “wrong” than the amputations themselves. i can’t help but assume they don’t have a very good relationship. because either a) she’s not worried about him or b) she is and he doesn’t give a damn that he’s putting her through all the grief of worrying herself sick over her constantly injured husband.
I never really know how to respond when I see things like this. I know it is something that a grow adult of sound mind and body wants to do, just like those of us who want to pierce, tattoo, and scar our bodies..
But, sometimes I think people do go a bit far. I know I am not the person to say to someone else thats not right, because they are not doing it to me, or anyone else. They are doing it to themselves, and harming no one else. I have actually always been a bit scared of those who are amputees let alone one who are amputees by there own hands…
I have NEVER wanted to remove a part of my body…
Until I started my menses. I have Endometriosis, and am starting to show signs of being allergic, to the birth control I am on to control my Endo. Without the birth control, I will menstruate, the Endo will grow, and I will be in so much pain I will be unable to move. Since I started mine, I have wanted my ovaries and uterus removed.
I know that some will see me then as less of a women because of this, but to me it is what has to be done for me to be able to survive and be me. I guess is some ways that is the way people who choose to be amputees feel as well.
I really want to cut off the tip of my little finger now…
And I mean that.
I really think the whole think is unbeliveably sick.
The response to extreme posts are always the same. It’s so predictable. We’ve got:
Poster type 1: “I like body modification, but THIS is just DISGUSTING and he OBVIOUSLY needs psychiatric help.” Can’t the fascists just go away and leave us in peace?
Poster type 2: “Check me out, I looked at all the pictures and never winced once. I’m a proper hardcore Modblog reader, me, I’m so jaded and unshockable.” What is that supposed to add to the discussion? Nobody is impressed.
The only thing about it that I find odd is that it’s not symmetrical. If my feet weren’t symmetrical it would annoy me.
Dear #39, I really can’t think of changing my opinion just to please you.
If that’s enough to make me a fascist, well, tomorrow I’ll race through my towncenter with a swastika drawn on my ass with a sharpie.
That said, I won’t do anything to stop this guy from doing whatever he wants, but I still firmly believe that the whole thing is crap.
The difference between modification and amputation is the same that divides decorating a wooden box with dremel, tools and colors and smashing it with a 3-ton hammer.
Although they both employ cutting and poking holes and whatever, they have nothing else in common.
haha @39
i totally agree, but you missed one.
poster type 3: whatever floats your boat but I wouldn’t do it!!!!1one
I don’t understand how anyone could condemn what someone does to their own body. It does not effect you in the lest, why worry about it? Epically on a body mod website, as I’m sure quite a few of us have had to deal with similar comments, I know I have.
And about him being a “burden on society” There are millions of amputated and “disabled” people who live very productive lives.
Thanks for the interview Shannon. I thought it was very interesting and I can understand more why someone would do that. Once again I feel like i should respond to a few things that were said.
Moddoctor said the following and it almost makes me wonder what kind of doctor he is cause he doesnt seem to know a lot about amputees or the issues we really face.
“Here’s my problem with the whole thing. Personal freedoms not withstanding, pursuing an above-the-knee amputation (AKA) makes this man into a burden to society.”
How exactly does having one leg make him a burden to society? Having been born without both legs does that make me even more of a burden? I know more people who are burdens to society and they are able bodied. Please if you make a comment like this back it up because this is total bs.
“Is he going to want a prosthesis so that he can walk? Will he be planning to take advantage of handicapped access? ”
So what if he gets a prosthetic. he is allowed to, its in his rights. Prosthetics get put on ebay, should we not allow able-bodied people buy them from there for the novelty? Why does it matter how they lost a limb if they are going to pay for a limb. Take advantage of handicapped access? are you kidding me? I’m sure you walk through automatic doors. Your abled bodied so why are you taking advantage of handicapped access. That is a rediculous arguement.
” This is a man who is electing to never be able to run with his kids, ever. He’s opting to place himself into a highly stigmatized group that suffers from many disadvantages throughout life.”
If i can run competitively in races with 2 AK prosthetics why wouldnt he be able to run using one with his kids? The only disadvantages I tend to go though are when people underestimate me, think i cant do things. Sure things are harder to do but i wouldnt really consider them disadvantages, just part of life. Everyone faces some sort of this in their lives. And the only reason we are a “highly stigmatized group” are because of people like you who dont think we can do anything and consider us a burden. I can guarentee that i can do anything you can do and maybe even better.
“AKA will make everything more difficult. He won’t be able to drive even with a prosthetic without a significantly modified automobile, for instance. Stairs are extremely difficult for AKA amputees.”
I drive with 2 prosthetics and my car isnt modified. I dont need hand controls. and with his left leg being gone, he wont even have to have the break and gas pedals moved over since you use your right foot for those things. Stairs aren’t extremely difficult. I have no problems with them, then again i have had my whole life to adjust. Friends of mine who have become amps laer in life say that it was hard at first but like anything, with a lot of work and adjustment it gets easier and they get better at it.
” Below-the-knee makes life more challenging, AKA is an order of magnitude further along the difficulty scale in terms of interacting with the non-amputated world.”
I find this comment the funniest. Most of my friends are able-bodied. I have no problems interacting with the non-amputated world, i dont know any amputees that do. That is th most rediculous thing i have ever heard.
I am suprised a “doctor” would say this stuff. The people who have had the biggest faith in me and my abillities have been my doctors and they have always encouraged me. Never said I would be stigmatized my whole life, not be able to run or walk or drive a car or interact with non-amputees. Just like last time. If there is anything people have questions about or want to talk about anything said here feel free to e-mail me at leglessshane@yahoo.com.
“The difference between modification and amputation is the same that divides decorating a wooden box with dremel, tools and colors and smashing it with a 3-ton hammer.”
this is exactly what i think. thank you for finding the words that i had been looking for all this time
I can deal with certain aspects of self amputees. What I can not deal with is hiding things the way that he is. His poor wife has no idea what is going on, yet he says he doesn’t care if people know? He is selfish and sick to keep these kinds of things from his wife, something that has such a profound impact on her, yet he is so selfish that he apparently can’t see it. Additionally to use his health insurance in such a way, well I call that being a theif. Do you know one of the reasons your health insurance premiums go up, because of the cost of the plan. I have no respect for someone that would for their own kicks and jollies lie to their wife and basically steal healthcare.
I’m glas his last amputation healed up well! I was wondering what it would look like after the healing bits were over with.
More power to you, if this is your gratification.
The only problem I have with this is the fact that his wife does not know. Other than that, more power to him. It’s his body and he should be allowed to do whatever he wants with it. People get plastic surgery all the time to make themselves ‘feel whole’, to make the outside look like the inside, yet people disagree with this. Why? Because it isn’t as mainstream as breast implants and liposuction?? Because he’s removing something instead of implanting something? Because it isn’t a piece of pretty ink or shiny metal? People should be allowed to modify their body in way they want. It should be our right and our right alone to do whatever we want to with our bodies.
As a sidenote: Does anyone watch Nip/Tuck? There was a rerun on the other night that dealt with a man in his 40’s who was seeking a leg amputation. No one would do it for him, though he offered ridiculous amounts of money. In the end, he opted for shooting himself in the thigh so that it could be removed due to damage. Wouldn’t it be so much easier if people could just get the procedure done instead of causing more damage to themselves?
In response to Shannon, aside from the various views regarding the beauty or ugliness of amputations, I think people think amputation is weird because it inhibits the ability of the body to function normally in a way that piercings and tattoos generally do not: if you remove your leg, you must rely on some type of equipment to enable you to move around, whether it’s crutches, a wheelchair or a prosthesis. Even removing fingers or toes inhibits normal functioning.
This interview really just leaves the same questions unanswered. How is this man not going to be a burden on the medical system? Even if he pays medical insurance premiums, it’s highly unlikely those paymens are sufficient to cover the treatment he requires when he induces infections to get doctors to amputate his various bits (in some ways, isn’t that a bit like committing suicide by cop?). Will he be paying for his prostheses and the other devices he’ll need to be able to function normally despite his disabilities? And how does he justify taking scarce resources away from those who become disabled unwillingly?
This interview disturbed me a lot more than any of the actual amputations he’s undergone. This is a person who seems not to have clearly thought through at least some of his amputations. He hasn’t told his partner about what he’s doing, letting her believe he’s worryingly accident prone or ill instead. And if he’s thought carefully about the care and devices he’ll need in the future to enable him to live normally, it doesn’t come across.
Shannon and Shane,
“Having been born without both legs does that make me even more of a burden? ”
“It doesn’t make him any more of a burden to society than someone who, say, requires state-sponsored psychiatric treatment for depression.”
It is his CHOICE to do this. If he was born without legs or had depression it is hardly the same, as they are not self inflicted. He is chosing to make himself a burden to society and that is what I personally have a problem with. Why should my taxes pay for him to modify himself in this way, when there are people out there who have no choice in whether they have limbs or not? Personally I think he is being very selfish by taking money and resources away from these people, no matter how little the amount may be. I would much rather see my hard earned cash go on supporting people who deserve it.
The guy in the interview says: “Disability is all in the mind.” Horseshit. That’s an insulting thing to say for a lot of people with disabilities, particularly high quadriplegics. Tell that to Christopher Reeve… oh, wait, you can’t; he died due to complications from his disability. This guy won’t amputate any fingers because, in my opinion based on the things he said in the interview, he knows that losing hand function is a disability that’s not “fun.” I doubt he’d proclaim that disability is all in the mind if he had no hands.
Later he says: “I don’t really care if people find out they were all voluntary. They will get over it — there are more important things to worry about.” Horseshit again. If he didn’t care who knew, his wife would know. This, to me, shows that he knows something is wrong with what he’s doing. Addicts and other whos are involved in things that they know are wrong or self-destructive on some level exhibit this type of dishonesty all the time.
I believe he has every right to amputate or mutilate or do whatever he wants to his body, as long as he’s prepared to take ownership of it and pay the consequences. The fact that he lies to doctors is bad enough; the fact that he lies to his wife shows that he is not prepared to accept true responsibility for his actions.
I believe in the idea that a mentally competent human being has a right to live as they chose, as long as it doesn’t hurt others, and I even believe in the right to die on our own terms, if we can. Self expression can be a beautiful thing, be it tattoos or body mods or just coloring one’s hair, and if someone wants to pursue elective amputation as a form of self-expression, fine. But I think most of us know this is not really “okay” and that the desire to have elective amputations is rooted in something psychological that is off in some way.
We don’t necessarily have to condemn this behavior–though I do condemn his cowardice in being dishonest with his wife about it–but by the same token, we don’t have to celebrate it either. Having an open mind does not mean we have to think “anything goes” or that anything anyone chooses to do to themselves is completely natural and good.
Speaking of dishonesty, this guy is lying to himself in his thinking that his life is not at risk when he gets infections, introduces infections or lets infections grow. One can become septic and die very quickly from infections, which is exactly why the doctors are amputating parts of his body.
Finally, about the idea of someone with an AKA being a burden on society: A disability can sometimes place a burden on family, friends and society, but there is not always a burden on society, depending on the level of one’s disability and the means by which they can afford to deal with that disability financially. I would argue, however, that there is always some burden on family and loves ones, if only emotionally and psychologically.
“Yeuch, dyeing your hair is OK, piercing your lip isn’t.”
“Yeuch, piercing your lip is fine, piercing your cock isn’t.”
“Yeuch, piercing your cock is fine, hanging from hooks isn’t.”
“Yeuch, hanging from hooks is fine, amputating your foot isn’t.”
The last people think they’re different from the first, and that cracks me up.
Odd that he’s a construction worker, though. I guess if he goes ahead with more amputation he’ll have to get a desk job - but that’s not a problem in an industrialised society. Why the hell would it make him a burden?
I can’t say DIY amputations aren’t beyond my comfort zone (because they are) but it just really isn’t right he’s lying to his wife. If this guy doesn’t have BIID (body integrity image disorder) then I don’t think the disorder exists. This guy needs help, he just doesn’t know it, which is common among those with psychological disorders.
“Why the hell would it make him a burden?”
Because even if he works til he’s 65 and pays his taxes and pays for medical insurance, it won’t cover all the medical procedures and devices required by his voluntary amputations.
amber, that nip/tuck episode saddened me greatly, as i was watching with two friends who viewed voluntary amputation as mutilation wheras i try to be tolerant and understand everyone and their choices for their bodies. its very frustrating to try to change the mind of two pierced people and make them understand that loss of a limb is the equivalent of a piercing for some. i feel normal with my nostril piercings and feel ‘wrong’ when i remove them. if someone feels ‘wrong’ with a leg, let them remove it.
The pictures were hard to look at. This coming from someone healing a medium size skin removal with scabs stuck to the inside of thier pants. But I liked the way he described watching his toe die. How liberating to see that the body is just that. A part of it can die and you can walk (or hobble) away still you. That said I don’t like the deception of his wife.
I struggle with friends and family asking me why I associate myself (As a “Body modification enthusiast and practitioner”) with the likes of people who “mutilate” their body by means of amputation and other seriously debilitating practices.
I, myself, don’t really care what other people do to themselves, but I do resent being lumped into the same category as people who amputate digits and limbs and carve their genitals off.
I think this quote:
“The difference between modification and amputation is the same that divides decorating a wooden box with dremel, tools and colors and smashing it with a 3-ton hammer.”
Articulates EXACTLY how I feel about it.
VERY well said.
#13: Infected toenails? Y’THINK??!
> “Yeuch, dyeing your hair is OK, piercing your lip isn’t.”
> “Yeuch, piercing your lip is fine, piercing your cock isn’t.”
> “Yeuch, piercing your cock is fine, hanging from hooks isn’t.”
> “Yeuch, hanging from hooks is fine, amputating your foot isn’t.”
> The last people think they’re different from the first, and that cracks me up.
I’m one of the last people, and I’m in no way afraid to admit it.
I never really thought about being different from your average “mainstream guy” (I have extremely liberal opinions on certain subjects and almost-nazi thoughts about other ones), I really don’t care.
But still, I think that there’s a giant wall that divides what I see as creative from what I see as simply destructive.
Dyeing, piercing, tattoing, implanting an inordinate amount of crap under your skin is something I see as creative and able to produce beautiful results (though not necessarily), but I can’t really see the point in chopping your leg off, and I really think you can rationally think of *any* benefit in doing it.
I think it’s sane as jumping in the fire to check if it’s really hot.
I’ve always been totally in love with “freaky” people of any sort, as I child I kept wondering if there was a way of growing a tail (!) and was totally in love with Wednesday Addams, but frankly this is way reallyenormouslyquiteactuallyincredibly waaaaay too much.
I believe he’s quite frustrated anyway.
…More power to you!!! If this is what makes you happy, by all means then; be happy!!! I have nothing negative to say in my response to reading the “interview.” Stay up!!!
I can’t really enter the above intellectual debate about what is too much and where the line between mutilation and modification is. All I know is that I can barely look at the pictures. They just hit a real reptilian part of my brain and “do not compute.” I cannot get my brain around them.
The not telling his wife this is very weird as well. I can’t see how she doesn’t, on some level, know that something is up.
I agree with #50, 53 and 55.
“Body Modification”, as I see it, is about enhancing your body, making it look nicer i guess and more how you want it. However, if he wants his body to look non-human, which to be honest his feet do, then that does seem like some sort of BDD or BIID to me.
Personally this is not for me, theres just something about modifying yourself in such a way that it could truelly affect your day to day life, theres such a permenance to it, even tattoos can be removed but this is pretty much it, no going back.
Growing a tail, though abnormal and “freakish” would still be an additional adornment rather than a disabling deformation, imo.
I’m with the people who are upset that he’s lying to his wife. What kind of relationship can he have with her if he can’t be honest about such a vital part of his life? I guess voluntary amputations are okay to a point. If he were to amputate his arms and legs, that’s the point where he’d really become a burden on society/his family/whatever. I love having two feet, two legs, two arms, and two hands, but I guess there are people who would rather function differently. I don’t really understand how he could stand having such a nasty infection, even if it was important to his goal, though. Eeeeeee.
And hooray, Shane. Thank you for telling off moddoctor. I doubt s/he’s a medical doctor anyway. :P
Something that I find interesting is that the more “mainstream” body modification gets, the more the body modification community attacks those who are on the fringes. It’s kind of sad that much of heavy body modification is far less accepted in 2007 than it was in 1997… and that these days, many of the attacks come from inside the community. Very sad…
…And I think it’s because these days people are “into” body modification as “fashion” most of the time, rather than because they are drawn to it on some low level…
Somebody might want those toes, too bad he got them infected and ruined. I got a small piece of my thumb cut off in a woodworking accident. It would have been nice to have a selection of parts at the hospital from people who didn’t want them to replace it. I don’t mean to sound judging if I do, I’m just saying. I guess no one would cooperate with someone who wanted to donate their parts. If I had to go through it again I would want I piece of my toe on my thumb. It would be much more useful there.
It seems to me he’s just lucky he hasn’t gone septic with any of these DIY amputations/infections.
It’s interesting that doctors will do gender reassignment surgery on people, including breast tissue removal and penectomy (sp?), but not voluntary amputation.
I wonder if the amputations would hold less attraction to him if done in a medical setting. It seems he enjoys the DIY aspect of this quite a bit.
Very Interesting. I’d never do it myself but when i was reading this article, my feet litterally started to hurt. Freaky :P.
Always interesting to know more about those diy amputations… Thanks to you both.
What an amazing , interesting interview! Thankx Shannon.
I agree with those who say it’s wrong to hide this from his wife. I’m sure she is guite worried when he gets “sick” and has to have surgery. But then, how do you bring up the subject?
Concerning a finger or toe…perhaps…but this quite catastrophic mid-foot with plans for an above-knee?
It’s almost as if he’s in too deep to tell her.
At least he’s paying for this himself thru insurance and is taking on the responsibilities of the limitations of his “handicap”, and tho I would never consider amputation myself…I find his story fascinating. I DO think inducing infection especially with diabetes, is unpredictable and foolhardy. But I think he did it out of desperation. It’s not like he can just go in and electively have an amputation. You can change your sex surgically (yes, I know there is MUCH more involved than the mere surgery) but you cannot get your leg cut off no matter how much pre-surgical analysis and councelling you are willing to do beforehand.
The toe proceedure he is going to do with his right foot to get the proportion correct…I can somehow see that as a well thought-out modification where there is a visual appeal.
The mid-foot looks bad (to me) and I hope he gets his above-the-knee and has a tidy stump and is happy.
Excellent interview. I think it is a little odd that his wife doesn’t know, you’d think there’d be some clues or something, but he’s doing it for himself, not others, so kudos to him for living his life how he wants. Thanks for posting this Shannon, I’ve been looking forward to it since you said you were doing it, when there were all the pictures posted. :)
@#66: That is because “the community” is A LOT larger and has grown to include those “fashion conscious” members who weren’t here in 1997. That’s part of the price to pay with everything that suddenly gets to be “in”. I don’t really consider myself part of it although I enjoy to engage in activities that most would label as ‘fringe’, too.
Im actually enjoying reading this discussion - there seems to be far less ‘kindergarten’ than with some other “modification or mutilation”- themed entries you published here in the past. Is that real or just due to more stringent moderation of comments?
I’m all for “live and let live”…but how about he gouge out his eyes then lets all talk about the disabled. [and my husband is blind...] To me this guy talks in circles..but that is “cool”…geeshhhh
Re: his wife / keeping it a secret
I think he’s on the edge of telling her; he wants to come out. I see it sort of like coming out of the closet — people hide it from those closest to them for a long time… Longer than they should, but at the same time, it’s not an easy thing to reveal.
I’m sure he agrees it’s wrong to hide it, but it’s easier said than done to admit it, I’m sure. Hell, how many guys hide even minor stuff like the porn they download from their wives? (And as much as major is more important, I’m sure you agree that major is HARDER to tell).
Bastian - The only comments I don’t put through moderation are first time posters that are overly hateful (ie. “this guy deserves to die”, etc.)… Other than that there’s no moderation.
You know what, I read this article a few hours ago and have been digesting it ever since and all I could say is…if that’s what rocks your socks more power to you Leen.
Just come clean with the wife and hope she understands. That was one of the many things that stood out
Its not my kink or my thing but who the fuck am I to judge?
The thing I find most interesting about amputation of any sort (and it seems like the subject might agree) is seeing how the amputee adapts to life without that particular body part. If I were to ever amputate a part of my body, it would be just to see how it would change day-to-day function.
So I wish the interview had a bit more of that. But perhaps losing half of one’s foot doesn’t have as big an impact as I’d think it would.
As far as the loaded “voluntary” question goes, do people who were forcibly tattooed consider it insulting that people would choose to have their bodies marked? And does that mean people with non-voluntary amputations are feeling insulted, or people with no amputations whatsoever feel that amputees might feel insulted?…
LotN - Yeah, I don’t think that toes or even half a foot has a major impact in terms of function…
I really enjoyed the interview. The guy seems very bright and knows exactly what he wants. If my tax dollars are helping him achieve his body mod goals then I’m all for it.
Well, enough people have reiterated my feeling on voluntary amputation that I don’t feel like repeating myself, but…
YOU ARE LYING TO YOUR WIFE, LYING TO THE DOCTORS and most importantly LYING TO YOURSELF if you think (not what) but the WAY you are doing this is okay. Its a fetish, that’s obvious from several of the comments made in the interview-which is well and good. Sure, you have insurance-lucky you btw-but premiums are already high-higher still for people with chronic illnesses like diabetes. So thanks for doing your little part(or should I say doing away with little parts) to drive up the overall cost for the rest of us-its the attitude towards the insurance companies, not country/country/corporations sensitive-which is not cool. This is a selfish, dangerous act with real consequences for others, namely his wife and family. So he’s willing to deal with using prosthetics? Great! Is everyone ELSE in his life willing to deal with it? And inducing infection? Sorry but that is the height of stupidity in my mind. Sure it helps him along towards his goal but what if he doesn’t catch the infection before it advances towards septicemia? Antibiotics don’t always work well, especially in people with the poor circulation often present with diabetes AND any doctor will tell you you can build up immunity to them, even in one prescription. just foolish. Now lets get the real issue-you have a wife and children. If something else does go wrong who will provide for them if one of your elective procedures becomes deadly? Your pension and death benefits? Again that is a system set up for unforseen death not a protective clause for yahoos with a amputation fetish/fixation. its not about what people think about those with amputations, voluntary or otherwise-I know several people who fall into both sides of that equation but in all cases they take personal responsibility for what they need to do and most importantly THEY TELL THEIR PARTNERS THE TRUTH. I have no respect for someone who is willing to lie at this level about something as important as this just so they can get what they want-not that he cares about what others think. Its just not cool. Thanks for the interview Shannon. Even though I don’t find his methods acceptable I still enjoy learning more about this type of body modification.
I find all of this very, very interesting.
I have always known what my body should/will look like. Scarification, tattooing, piercing and implanting are my modes of meeting that self-image. I can not deny my self-image, weather future or now a part of my skin, any more than I can deny the need to breathe.
When Leen speaks about his amputations, his words are familiar. It is wrong that he has not told his wife, but like Shannon, I think that he is on the verge. Remember, he has to first come to terms with what he has done and why, before he can help anyone else understand. From what I have read, he seems to have hit that last lock, before the windows open and the truth streams out.
Good luck to him.
Yeah, amputations, beyond my comfort zone. His life, his body. He can have his fun. Here’s what gets me the absolute most:
A partial penectomy without consulting his wife? That gets me more than the not telling the wife it’s all voluntary–consulting her before attempting that. I don’t know about their personal life, but I’d have a thing or two to say if my SO wanted one.
Beyond that, it’s very Freudian. (I’ve been at university too long.)
I’m really quite fine with his self-amputations, really. I find it pretty disgusting that he’s not being honest with his wife, and I’m very mildly bothered that he’s using his health care provider (and therefore everyone else’s higher insurance premiums) to do this. To me that smacks of the same sort of cultural sense of entitlement that shoplifting for non-essentials has.
But mainly, I just can’t imagine doing this, or needing or wanting to do this, without being honest with the woman I’ve pledged to spend my life with. That’s just wrong.
Um, why is everyone assuming he has children?
“Everyone” is not.
Please don’t lump us all together.
I’ve thought about amputation a couple of times. It really doesn’t scare me as much as it used to. It’s pretty fascinating, but the infections are just GROSS!
Re:His medical costs are far less then those with mental disabilities.
People with mental disabilities have absolutely no control over what they are going through. Society should be available to help them, considering it is a ‘disease’.
This man chooses to do this. I don’t think that anyone should help him in any cost’s that go towards his amputations.It is purely choice..and society shouldn’t have to pay for such choices. They don’t pay for piercings, tattoos, ect.!
I mean, to each their own. I personally don’t support this, but if this makes him happy, then go for it. As long as others aren’t brought into it. He should be fully responsible for everything.
Also Shannon, I don’t think that people in the mod world should be pressured to view this as ‘okay’ or ‘right’. Yes, they should learn to deal with it, but they should still be able to speak their opinions without fearing people will look at them differently..or see them as being judgmental.
You know Shannon, you’re right. I thought I had read it in the interview but after pages and pages of comment my mind probably scrambled the facts. Apologies. still, I stand by everything else I said, kids or no kids.
I find it surprising that people have trouble understanding why he’s not out to his wife… it’s VERY common for people to hide things like this. Right or wrong, it’s quite normal, and I don’t think that outrage about the sanctity of marriage is particularly productive…
the only part that shocked me was his wife didnt know! must be a damn good liar!
starspring - Surely you must know guys that spent years hiding their sexuality from their family, friends, and spouses… They’re not bad people for it. It’s not easy coming out. You know this.
Is it right that people stay in the closet? No. But it doesn’t make them bad people. It just makes them people who are going through something difficult to reveal to those closest to them…
Shannon-what I did wonder about was what SHE thinks of her husband being so “accident prone”. Then again marriage means nothing to me-of course I can’t legally get married. Maybe I should move to Africa-you seem to be able to do just about anything there. ;)
I can understand, not agree with it. a closet is a closet.
I can’t say the general reactions have surprised me, but I did hope that a community constantly bemoaning their lack of acceptance in ‘mainstream’ society would be less judgmental towards someone on the fringes of their own community.
I don’t see a difference between the average person judging someone with piercings and tattoos, and someone with piercings and tattoos judging this person.
#79 LotN says “As far as the loaded “voluntary” question goes, do people who were forcibly tattooed consider it insulting that people would choose to have their bodies marked? And does that mean people with non-voluntary amputations are feeling insulted, or people with no amputations whatsoever feel that amputees might feel insulted?…”
Well, I found it interesting that in the interview with the other voluntary amputee that was before this one (the guy who invented a lot of prosthetics, and had an above the knee amputation, as well as missing a hand IIRC), even that guy, who was very involved in the amputee community, mentioned that he “just didn’t tell them how he lost his limbs” or something to that effect. So apparently even he didn’t feel that all of the more mainstream amputee community would be exactly welcoming to find out.
As for the forced tattoos question - I’d bet you would find a lot of resistance if you had a tattoo that was the same as a recognizable forced tattoo. Say, a tattoo that was concentration-camp style ID numbers. You might have a good reason for it (tribute, etc come to mind pretty quick) but I wouldn’t be too surprised if there was some resistance, and particularly if you were of a similar age as survivors.
There are occasionally posts that complain of people getting certain cultural motifs without going through the usually accompanying ceremonies, etc, too.
Heck, if you go read through the posts on that “trans-abled” site linked from the other amputation article, there were some letters posted from people with congenital disabilities who were not welcoming at all.
Speaking of people who get sex-reassignment surgery, absolutely there are reactions that they “aren’t real women” when it comes to M-to-F. Remember the dust-up when some M-to-F wanted to attend the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival?
It’s not only voluntary amputees who get the reaction. Reading around all these things, it seems to me that there’s an element of someone trying to join a group that is viewed by society as disadvantaged. Those who are born into it or become members involuntarily, who have always been members, often DO resent people who had the choice not to bear the disadvantage, who are “horning in” on the support group, trying to become insiders. In the very mildest form, some of the reaction toward “hippies” as people playing with voluntary poverty are similar.
I can’t say that’s what happens with the reaction to voluntary amputations, but some of it does seem similar to me.
For Leen- I hope you accomplish what you set out to do, and wish you the very best!
as for comparing him not telling his wife to a gay person “coming out of the closet:” i don’t see it that way. if someone i care about is gay and he doesn’t tell me about it, no harm done. if someone i care about is constantly getting infections and having accidents and losing more and more body parts, harm is indeed done as that would cause me to worry myself crazy over this person. i mean, i fully understand why he’s hiding it and i understand how hard it must be for him to stand up and tell his wife about it, but that doesn’t change the fact that she’s probably out of her mind with constant worry. sometimes you just have to suck it up and tell the truth. keeping this a secret shouldn’t be more important than his wife’s feelings, even if telling her would make things more difficult for him. i’m glad that he’s finally considering telling her and i hope he has the strength to stand up and do so.
crystallinectar - So you’re saying it’s harder on a woman in a marriage to be married to an amputee than a gay man? :P I’m not saying either should be hidden, but I think it’s a fair comparison.
For those who have felt it necessary to call me out for not venerating all modifications as responsible exercises of personal freedoms, that’s your right. I’m definitely a licensed physician and I’ve always viewed my role here as being one of pointing out areas of concerns. This particular individual is the flash point for numerous concerns from his desired mods to his level of secrecy from his loved ones. This are areas worthy of discussion and concern. I really think that, but apparently that’s not a valid position.
I haven’t accused anyone who claims to be an amputee of lying. I haven’t accused anyone who endorses this behavior and modification of being anything less than someone who endorses these behaviors. The lack of decorum that anything other than abject support for those featured on modblog generates is disconcerting to me.
The issues of having AKAs are complicated. We apparently cannot discuss those things here. People who end up with AKAs in my practice career have never once been glad to lose their leg. From a functionality standpoint orthopedic surgeons work very hard to preserve the knee joint because it makes huge differences in the functionality of prosthetics. But I clearly am not entitled to know this.
I cannot and will not venerate dangerous and self destructive behavior. Period. Modification for it’s own sake has limits in my worldview and I admit that freely here. Can you others accept your own limitations?
I dunno, Shannon. You seem to take a default position that any “modification” of any body for any reason is acceptable, good, and defensible. You’ve defended the decorative tattooing of dogs, the voluntary removal of body parts including major limbs, body modification artists performing surgery, and various other practices that could at the very least be considered borderline. People have raised what I consider very valid points regarding all these, yet you haven’t taken any position, and I haven’t seen many of these points raised in your interviews.
Several voluntary amputees themselves have indicated that their desires are disordered; so is anorexia nervosa, yet you don’t feature it on BME. In fact, I haven’t seen any images or discussion of people who’ve drastically modified their bodies through such means as extreme dieting or extreme body building. Why not? Is it because you recognise that such behaviours have a basis in pathology?
Exploding Boy… Um, I haven’t defended tattooing dogs or anything/anyone else that can’t give consent, so please do NOT suggest that I have.
I have posted about body building and both fasting and gainer culture as well. I don’t think that body building is a sickness, nor do I think weight control has to be either — both absolutely CAN be valid forms of body modification. As long as it’s consensual and the person understands what they’re getting themselves into, I support it.
I do not feel that it is my place to put limits on other people’s freedom of expression, and while I enjoy interviewing people about their interests, I do not feel particularly motivated to structure an interview over old and tired insults that reflect a shallow understanding of what they’re about, even if that is the first thing that crosses the mind of the mainstream reader.
I guess I am just feeling empathy for the wife. It actually seems less serious to me than hiding a secret sex life and possibly giving her a disease or virus though. This all has me thinking of that scene in the Stephen King movie Cats Eye where the women is holding a champagne glass and the tip of her little finger is gone…I would never do that(I think) but if I did I would cut it off clean and bloody. I didn’t like the”in progress” photos of all that infection. But maybe thats part of it for him? Controlled infection…I get into that with my healing scarifications.
I do agree that he’s probably “in too deep” to want to tell his wife now, which is really sad. It’s going to be harder for him now that he’s come all this way, but I guess he can’t change the mistakes he’s already made (i.e., not telling his wife before he started all this). I hope it works out all right for him and for his family.
moddoctor - Sorry for being a jerk. I had a strong reaction to some of your assertions, particularly that losing one leg will make this guy a “burden on society” and that he can’t drive a car with only one leg. Maybe these were your own strong reactions to the initial post. I found it upsetting that a doctor would be so negative about an amputee, even if the amputation was voluntary.
Personally, I’m a little curious about phantom limbs, but I would never actually do it. I love my body parts where they are. :)
I think ‘akibare’(#97) raised an interesting point, about the stigma on people who choose to join a group generally seen as disadvantaged.
A few have touched on the issue of voluntary amputees being somehow hoarders of pity rightfully deserved to involuntary amputees, and the response of an amputee here, ‘Shane’(#44), being “What makes you think we want your pity?”(paraphrased but seems accurate)
In life, there will always be people who tell you that the way you live is wrong. The decisions you make, your favorite brand of peanut butter, or the way you look, there’s always someone who will disagree. At the end of the day, it’s you who has to live with yourself, so do the best you can to make that possible.
I’m glad things like this get posted and discussed, because it’s informative and it makes you think(well, at least some of the comments do). I think that someone somewhere at any given time, will be wanting to amputate their limbs or fingers or toes or whatever. Perhaps they’d be doing it even without the information and suchlike; indeed I’d bet that people HAVE. And at least this is a venue where they will know a. they are not alone, b. perhaps there is a NAME and PLACE for what they feel and who they ARE, and c. there is at least some information and maybe even options in existence.
“Um, I haven’t defended tattooing dogs or anything/anyone else that can’t give consent, so please do NOT suggest that I have.”
Yes, you have. Here: http://modblog.bmezine.com/2007/05/24/lost-and-tattooed-dog/ you say (among other things) “A [decorative] tattoo on the dog of a loving (misguided or not) owner is really a complete non-issue.”
But you’re still not really giving a response. I didn’t say that body building was pathological, but that in some cases extreme body building can be, as can extreme weight loss. When a skeletal appearance results from an eating disorder, it’s an illness, not a body modification. Just to be clear, are you claiming this type of dieting is a form of body modification that should be supported?
I think it’s disingenous to simply dismiss people’s thoughtful points as “old and tired insults” or “shallow understanding.” Some people participating here are attempting to engage in thoughtful discussion about issues (such as, where’s the line between “body modification” and “self mutilation”) for which there are few easy answers and many reasonable concerns.
it’s fake…that’s my opinion!
“crystallinectar - So you’re saying it’s harder on a woman in a marriage to be married to an amputee than a gay man? :P I’m not saying either should be hidden, but I think it’s a fair comparison.”
Typically, the wives tend to be oblivious (or damn near) to the fact their husbands are gay. The men go out of their way to make their marriage seem as normal as possible. If my husband were diabetic and was always getting infections and losing body parts, I would be worried out of my mind. Whereas, if my husband were secretly gay, it would would be pretty hard for me to be worried since there wouldn’t be anything obvious for me to notice.
Every time this guy has to go to the hospital for an infection or amputation, he’s putting his life on the line. This would have to be incredibly hard on his wife. For all she knows, she’s watching her husband die little by little, piece by piece. Due to the fact that she believes this is brought on by bad luck/diabetes, I’m guessing she feels pretty helpless.
Shannon-yes, I agree. Although, honestly, I see this as more along the lines of a gay guy married to a woman who is cheating on her with guys. Not simply a gay man married to a woman who is trying to come to terms with his sexuality and/or trying to figure out how to tell her. I don’t know if that makes sense or not…
In the first case, the guy is actively pursuing something that is directly harmful to his wife. In the second, he’s contemplating and attempting to come to terms with something before telling his wife. I see a difference there.
But like I said, I do understand why he’s kept it hidden, and I’m glad he’s trying to figure out how to tell his wife. I just think it would have been nice if he had discussed these desires before he acted on them, though I know that’s not always a realistic option. Either way, I hope it goes well for him, and doesn’t cause any long-term problems with his marriage. Hopefully she’ll be understanding of his choices and things will work out ok.
Although I understand sympathy for his in-the-dark wife, I don’t think anyone is really giving consideration to just how hard it will be for him to reveal this secret. Just look at the reactions of this community. Here we have a group of people who are accepting of hanging from hooks, implanting objects, cutting, etc. and even some of you are completely appalled by these acts. The fear of having someone you love react in the same way, well it’s absolutely terrifying. To be an outsider in a community such as this (which I would definitely consider myself as) is a struggle. When the outsiders judge you as an outsider, it’s hard to be open and honest with all of your feelings…So give the guy some credit…This isn’t just hiding a belly button piercing from your parents. It’s seeking the complete acceptance of a loved one regarding a subject that is shunned by most of society.
Also, I understand this feeling that he is putting a strain on the health care system by pursuing this. What about when piercings/other modifications become infected? When these people flee to a hospital for medical care, I never seen anyone complaining, saying that they should have never got that piercing knowing that they had the chance of using up already stretched thin medical care. I know amputation is a much more extreme case, but any form of body modification has the risk of medical intervention.
I think the points made about how so many insults come from within the body modification commnunity are valid. Maybe I’ve just lived in a very rude and conservative town, but I lost track long ago of how many times people made comments that basically amounted to saying that I was self-mutilating myself — and I have FAR less extreme mods than Leen, Shannon and probably half of the people who’ve posted here.
As with many things, society has been conditioned as to what’s acceptable and what isn’t. Amputation has definitely fallen into the category of always being a tragic circumstance and therefore why would anyone want to do something like that voluntarily. It doesn’t necessarily have to be tragic or negative…so why must we echo what someone has probably said to any of you with facial piercings or even tattoos: “how can you do that to yourself?” to someone who just has a different view of themselves?
When I first started coming to BME, I was shocked by voluntary amputation. I was also a bit shocked by tongue splitting, subincisions and just about anything else that went beyond piercings, tattoos and less extreme scarifications. But keeping an opened mind and talking to people who had heavier modifications made me realize that they’re no different than me. They just have different aesthetic tastes that are no more wrong than mine.
There is definitely a mental health aspect, but in my opinion it only has to do with not rushing into things. This is something that requires commitment and a person who seems sane and logical, as Leen does, understands what he is getting himself into long term. Going into it on a whim would be where I’d have issue with it.
I also have to agree with Shannon and some others about Leen’s wife not knowing — it must be hard to worry about her reaction. I would definitely have liked to see more of an in-depth exploration into this aspect within the interview, but it probably is a sensitive subject for him. It just amazes me the things people think they must keep from their spouse — internet porn was a good example — in order to be loved. I do feel lucky that I am in love with a woman who doesn’t necessarily share my deep interest in body modification but accepts me and knows my feelings on the topic (my acceptance of the more extreme forms of modification included). I’ve told her before that if she and I ever separated I think I’d have a hard time finding someone as accepting of me even within the body modification community — and that’s just for my opinions and acceptance of the extreme.
and to Exploding Boy: I don’t think Shannon was saying with that comment that he supported the tattooing of the dog at all. It seemed to me that he was merely trying to make a point. If you don’t speak out against docking tails and ears, against eating meat, against identification chips and tattoos, etc., then you have no right to speak out against a decorative tattoo on a dog. Honestly, as against it as I am, it was done under anesthesia, which I can assure is far less painful for the dog than it is for the chickens on chicken farms that people gobble up everyday.
As for mental illness vs. body modification, We have no evidence at all that this guy is doing these amputations due to some psychological problem. From reading the interview, it sounds to me like he was curious and liked the way it looks. He says there was no internal struggle. That to me, doesn’t sound like a mental problem. It’s no more crazy than me doing a suspension because I was curious about how it would feel, or me getting a piercing because I like the way it looks.
I do agree that there is a difference between wanting to do something and needing to do it. In some cases, voluntary amputation is driven by a psychological problem. But this doesn’t seem to be one of them to me.
And even when it is psychologically driven, there is most often an end goal, and when that’s reached, they’re done. There’s been quite a bit of research to support this. Unlike anoretics, where there is never a real end goal and they keep going indefinitely, most voluntary amputees reach a set goal and stop. I’m not saying it’s healthy or that I would recommend for those with a psychological need for amputations to pursue it in all cases, but as long as they have an end goal and actually stop there and it solves the problem (and it usually does), then who am I to tell them not to do it?
“I don’t think Shannon was saying with that comment that he supported the tattooing of the dog at all.”
Well, the contexts of all his posts on that subject read as a defence to me.
“As for mental illness vs. body modification, We have no evidence at all that this guy is doing these amputations due to some psychological problem.”
On the contrary, I think it could be argued that certain features of his practices point exactly that way, such as the apparent lack of forethought given to at least some of his amputations, and the fact that he’s hiding it from his wife. I’m not necessarily making that argument.
“And even when it is psychologically driven, there is most often an end goal, and when that’s reached, they’re done.”
Well sure, but that doesn’t make it any less pathological, does it?
I’m sorry but that is hot as hot can be. I’m still trying to find a way to amputate the tip of my left ring finger without my husband knowing I did it myself. He already is hiding the cigar cutters from me. :)
Well, he did say “Personally, I wouldn’t tattoo a dog”…
And I do think some of his procedures were, well, idiotic, but it sounds to me like they were pretty planned out, even if they didn’t go as planned (just one reason I’m not a big fan of DIY). As for him hiding it from his wife, I hide the fact that I smoke from my in-laws as does my husband. Does that mean we have psychological problems? No, it means my mother-in-law would lecture me for a month straight if she knew I smoked. People hide things for many reasons. It seems the reason here is apparent. Whether he’s crazy or not, his wife very well may think he is. She may not accept him. It’s the same reason gay people hid their sexuality.
And no, it doesn’t make it any less pathological. I’m 100% for those with psychological problems of any sort seeking therapy to deal with the issues rather than taking them into their own hands. It’s not always an easy step for someone to admit their problems to someone else. I’m not condoning his actions if they are due to some mental problem. But it’s not my body. I don’t know what’s going on here, so I’m going to reserve judgment. It’s his body, his right. Do I agree with it? No, not in the least. I would never do this myself, nor do I support his choices. But I do support his right to make those choices. I personally believe that anyone with some psychological need should seek amputation as a last-ditch option and attempt therapy first. But unfortunately that doesn’t always happen. And I’m not saying that just because there’s a set end-goal, that somehow makes it more ok than other illnesses like anorexia, but most often, it’s nowhere near as devastating. I know a guy who removed his own testicles. He was unhappy before and now he’s happy. I wish he could have been happy without having to go through with it, but if doing it made his life better for him, what right do I have to judge his decision?
Shannon’s amputation posts always bring up conversations like these, and it always turns into a debate. I tend to be of the “it’s their body…” mindset. I don’t always agree with things but, well, it is his body. I can’t say he’s wrong without feeling just as shitty and judgmental as my grandmother who thinks I’ve mutilated my body by getting genital piercings.
Some valid points.
But what this post really leaves me wondering is, how on earth does your grandmother know about your genital piercings?
lol. my sister asked me one how bad it hurt not knowing gramma was standing 2 feet away.
his left toe looks exactly like mine…
The interview did not change my opinion of people who self-amputate, or create infections to force doctors to amputate. His poor wife, she was probably beside herself with worry…
I’m glad he’s happy, but in some ways I wish he’d tell his wife. However, it is his body and his life, so he may do as he pleases.
“I see this as more along the lines of a gay guy married to a woman who is cheating on her with guys. Not simply a gay man married to a woman who is trying to come to terms with his sexuality and/or trying to figure out how to tell her. I don’t know if that makes sense or not…
In the first case, the guy is actively pursuing something that is directly harmful to his wife. In the second, he’s contemplating and attempting to come to terms with something before telling his wife. I see a difference there.
And I do think some of his procedures were, well, idiotic, but it sounds to me like they were pretty planned out, even if they didn’t go as planned
As for him hiding it from his wife, I hide the fact that I smoke from my in-laws as does my husband. Does that mean we have psychological problems? No, it means my mother-in-law would lecture me for a month straight if she knew I smoked. People hide things for many reasons. It seems the reason here is apparent. Whether he’s crazy or not, his wife very well may think he is. She may not accept him. It’s the same reason gay people hid their sexuality.”
—crystallinectar—
i agree with the first bit
they werent all planned out
“On one toe I was just “playing” with an old chisel I found… I put it on my toe and pushed too hard and it went right through the bone — I then just had to push harder until the toe was amputated. Of course, an infection set in because the chisel was dirty and I had to go to hospital where they did a ray amputation” -from the interview
you arent married to your in-laws, hideing something from your SO is very different than hideing it from anyone else, you’re chooseing to spend your life with him, the in-laws are just part of the package
i dont understand why hes hideing from his wife, why would he want to be with someone who doesnt accept him?
only good can come of telling her -she accepts it and they have a better relationship or -they divorce and find better relationships
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
this whole situation is just unfair to his wife
hes making her worry about his accidents and hes spending a lot of their money every month on this
even more if he goes threw with the above the knee amputation
“a prosthetic arm or a leg above the knee usually costs between $10,000 and $15,000. Some are as much as $35,000.”
-http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2005/07/05/cost_of_prosthetics_stirs_debate/
add onto the cost of the actual prosthetic -surgery -increased insurance -fittings -repairs over the years -physical therapy -possibly a wheel chair
the whole money thing would be different if she knew what was going on and agreed to it
when your married or even living together such big decisions need to be made together
~~~~~~~~~~~~
to me amputation is very real, i know 2, and i almost was one
*my uncle has 1/2 a left foot just like this guy, it even has the hoof look, it was from a helicopter accident when he was in the navy (before i was born)
*granddad had both legs amputated below the knee due to infection and denying the serious-ness out of fear, it was not intentional though (when i was around 10)
*as a newborn i almost lost my whole left leg due to blood being put in too fast, i still have pain and weakness in it
i remeber the recovery my granddad went threw, the phantom pains, being rubbed sore by prosthetics, all the fittings he had to go threw, learning to walk (physical therapy), getting a car modified and learning to drive it… thankfully the VA covered a good bit of it
it still hurt the family a lot financially
in response to “m”:
i meant that things he planned to be amputations were well thought out. he didn’t initially mean for that to be an amputation. there’s a difference. hence why i said some of the stuff he did was idiotic.
as for not telling his wife–i never said i agreed with that decision. i was merely pointing out that not telling his wife in no way implies that he has a psychological problem. he most certainly should tell his wife, but not doing so doesn’t provide evidence that he’s crazy. yes, she should be informed, yes she should know why the money’s being spent.
as for prosthetics, i think cost is a big issue. if he wants one after his leg amputation, i can only hope he can afford to pay for it out of pocket and not go through insurance. that i have an issue with. then again, i would also be pissed if he used a handicapped parking space. maybe i’m weird in thinking that, but eh.
While this is beyond my own personal limits, I’m interested to know more about amputation. One thing that I didn’t like, though, was how he induced the infection in order to get the amputation. I just believe its one thing to be taking responsiblity for yourself, and another to be putting it into someone elses hands, and to be quite honest, to someone in the medical profession it makes me feel he has not got a lot of respect for what we do. What about the patients who genuinely need care? I hope I’m not being terribly offensive or obnoxious, and I admit that I don’t have much of an understanding of this, but I just wanted to put my view out there.
hey, nowadays middle aged women are getting their toes reduced or entirely taken off just to wear a fucking pair of heals. what kind of fucking reason is that? *for those who don’t know me, i hate yuppy right wing assholes* they declare that it is for fashion. what kind of fashion is getting your toes cut off to wear heals? me myself, i brand myself for personal reasons, and amputating your toes or fingers is a personal reason for them. that’s a good reason to do something to yourself physically. i support any type of body modification regardless of whether i would do it or not, but if i see these “fashion sufferers” getting their toes reduced and the media and all the fucking public say “aw, poor woman. she is having parts of her body cut off to fit in.” i say bullshit. there’s no fucking pitty for them. but if someone such as this person amputates their own fucking toe by themself, they are considered an outcast and should be shunned away from society. i started branding myself when i was 16 as a way to deal with my depression. the pain took my mind off of the bad thoughts. and i’m not disrespecting people who cut themselves for mod purposes, but i hate those emo motherfucking bitches who cry and say life sucks, why bother living? i say fuck them. grow a pair. i’m sorry if anybody here has ever had someone they knew commit suicide, but that’s bullshit. cutting for fun i understand, but emo people cut for attention and once again, the media eats that shit up. my father has diabetic neuropothy *sorry for the spelling* and his feet are constantly both numb and in pain. he can barely walk *if you want to call it that* and has random pains in his feet. i’m not talking “ow i stubbed my toe” i’m talking about people call 911 when they see my dad in pain because he’s leaning so far back and can barely breath and grits his teeth. his fingers are also part of it. they too are going numb. he has a good way of hiding it from my mom, but he has cigarette burns on his fingers because he can’t feel the burn. what kind of life is that? and he has to take anti-
seizure pills that make him a vegetable on the couch, so he has a choice between that or smoking pot. so he’s a legal med patient in the state of california. he has his nipples pierced by the way. which is why i had mine done. it was a a kind of a fathers day present which ended up with the piercings being rejected by my body. but i’m tired of people who do shit for attention getting felt sorry for when people do it all the time for personal reasons regardless of for show or for making themselves themselves. i started to understand that when i first read johnny tattoos interview in tattoo magazine back in my senior year of high school. he said he felt something was missing every time he looked in the mirror. that’s when i support body modification. the people who cut off their toes for themselves i can respect. i’ll respect them more than any family member because they did it for their own fucking reasons. so support the mods, not the fucking yuppy bitches who do it so they can fit into a fucking pair of shoes.
I fail to see what “insight” cutting off your toes might bring. I also agree that I find it akin to cheating to have these particular disorders and hide them from your wife. I really don’t think it sounds… possible that no one would ever suspect anything. It’s self-injury just like some teenager hacking away at his forearms, and I’m not entirely convinced that it should be glorified as “modifying your body.” He must have some bad doctors in his area, to not even consider that his “bad luck” might not be.
Basically, I don’t believe the entire interview is entirely… truthful. Who the hell could say “I don’t care who knows why my feet are missing parts” and then “No, my wife and no one else knows!” in the space of a couple minutes? If it’s so important to him, and it’s so not a mental problem, one would think he’d explain it to people who are close to him.
because he may not care, but i’m pretty fucking sure if he told his wife, she’d leave his ass. no joke. how many people do body mods and if they went to work and talked about them or even showed a glimpse of the, they would get fired? like for example, if ed norton from american history x ever took off his shirt in front of a girl he was interested in or wore a shirt a little too thin to work, he’s get dumped and fired. certain body mods are meant for the person that it deals with only. i’m sure there will be a time when the wife will see it, and she might be okay with it, or she will do the second one and leave him.
I think it’s a fascinating modification, I’d never be able to do it to myself, the feeling of loss I think to me would overcome a sense of pleasure or fulfillment, but for people like Leen and their interests, it’s got to the the most incredible self assurance and pleasing I’ve ever encountered. It is unfortunate I think about his wife not knowing, but honestly, if she’s happy to be with you and you’re by all means happy without her knowing of the induced amputation, then good for you both, it’s so hard to be mutually happy with someone for so long these days anyway, and if she is just as happy with him, if she knew, who knows maybe she would come to understand, or maybe she’d scream and throw an iron at him or something.
Looking at some of the comments on this post I can understand why he doesn’t tell his wife. I don’t wish to accuse anybody of anything but it’s quite clear by some of the comments that there are people who just don’t think this type of behaviour is normal, and I can understand why those people would think that way because it’s outside of what those people class as body modifications, it’s definitely outside the mainstream, and obviously outside of what society would deem as normal!
I agree with something Shannon wrote saying “…And I think it’s because these days people are “into” body modification as “fashion” most of the time, rather than because they are drawn to it on some low level…”. I think most people consider body modification to be tattoos, piercings, scarification, and brandings, anything else is crossing the line and gets considerable criticism by lots of people – even by those people with tattoos and piercings etc.
I think body modification exists within the individual from birth, yeah I know once you get tattoos and piercings etc. you can be classed as modified but unless you are one of those people with a built-in desire to modify yourself then you will never understand where other people with heavy mods or a desire for heavy mods are coming from!
I don’t think telling his wife would be in his best interests, unless she is heavily modified, or has a desire to be heavily modified herself…then I don’t think she will ever understand. Personally I have never had the desire to chop off a limb, but I can fully understand where this guy is coming from, for me it’s about completion.
I think at the end of the day it boils down to what people see as right and wrong, I don’t think anyone is at fault or anyone is to blame…its all about acceptance and understanding. No offence intended, just my opinion that is all!
P.S. Just something else I would like to add, unlike people who have lots of facial piercings (which attract attention) all this guys mods are hidden, so who is he trying to impress?
I’m thinking about amputating my whole body.
Or my head. Whichever is gonna be easier…
I was waiting for the sarcasm and humorist to arrive. they have!
After reading this article it answered a lot of questions for me about why an indivdual would want to and feel the need to remove important parts from their body, though I would never want to remove my limbs, it makes the individual happy. I do have to agree with other commenters that it is unfair that he doesn’t tell his wife about what he is doing though theres probably a reason why he hasn’t. I did find this very interesting.